FT interview: Mohammed Ali Abtahi

Sunday, Jul 18, 2004

Edited transcript of an interview with Mohammed Ali Abtahi, Iran's vice-president with responsibility for legal and parliamentary affairs, conducted at the Institute for Inter-Religious Dialogue in central Tehran on July 17 2004

FT: Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the supreme leader, has just reappointed Ayatollah Ahmed Jannati as the head of the Guardian Council, Iran's constitutional watch-dog. Should we see this as an endorsement of the council's decision in last February's parliamentary elections [when it excluded over 2,000 mainly reformist candidates]?

Abtahi: Under Iran's constitution the supreme leader is empowered to appoint the members of the Guardian Council (GC). I don't know the reason for this reappointment, but the supreme leader has always in his speeches emphasised the need to bolster the GC.

FT: Given the reappointment of Ayotallah Jannati, should we expect disqualifications of reformists from next June's presidential election?

Abtahi: I think that if this (reappointment) had not happened, we would still see disqualifications of this kind. The reappointment of Mr Jannati does mean a continuation of the previous path. Of course during the parliamentary elections there were more hardline figures than Mr Jannati on the governing council, and the council in general, rather than a single person, was responsible for the decisions.

FT: Is there still hope of having a reformist candidate in the presidential election?

Abtahi: There is a debate among our friends about whether we should run in the presidential election or not. If we assume that there would be the same obstacles faced by President [Mohammed] Khatami [in office, when his proposed legislation was consistently blocked by the guardian council], then some of our friends prefer not to run. However some others believe we have to run for election one way or another.

It is natural that the enthusiasm among reformists for introducing a candidate is very low. There are some figures who could gain many votes but we are sure that they would not be accepted by the guardian council.

But because there is a four-month period before the council starts its work, there is an opportunity for would-be presidential candidates to begin their campaign in society. If we can inject fresh hope within society, this may lead to people's participation and the candidate could win.

FT: Do you have a favoured candidate?

Abtahi: It is a little early to discuss or decide such things.

FT: Do you think Hassan Rowhani [head of the Supreme Council of National Security and considered a pragmatic conservative] would be a strong candidate?

Abtahi: In this current situation I won't predict whether he will be a candidate.

FT: What was your reaction last month when you heard of the arrest of the British sailors on Arvand Rud [the waterway, known as Shatt al-Arab in Arabic, separating Iran and Iraq]?

Abtahi: Naturally, no Iranian can accept any violation of our territory.

FT: Why has Iran not returned the digital navigation equipment that would prove whether the boats were in Iranian or Iraqi waters?

Abtahi: I don't know about such specifics. Speaking in general, I would say we must continue a policy of detente and to keep away from things that can become a big political crisis.

FT: What are the obstacles to some kind of dialogue with the United States as step towards the normalisation of relations?

Abtahi: In cases like relations with the US, it is not solely the government that can make decisions - there are other organisations and particularly the supreme leader, who have their own ideas and opinions. And the main point of the supreme leader is 'mistrust the US'.

FT: But you can talk to people you don't entirely trust...

Abtahi: There are different points of view about this.

FT: Is the mistrust between Iran and the US producing the tension over Iran's nuclear programme, or is the programme stimulating the mistrust?

Abtahi: Even before the nuclear programme, relations between the US and Iran were not as we would like them to be. The mistrust led to the problems over our nuclear programme.

FT: Over the boat incident, we appeared to see a parallel structure where those dealing with the issue - specifically the Revolutionary Guards - were acting apart from the government. Is there such a dual system with the nuclear program?

Abtahi: High-ranking officials from different groups in Iran share a general consensus that we should not seek weapons of mass destruction and that our atomic programme is peaceful.

FT: Media reports are suggesting that the 9/11 commission in the US will conclude that there were contacts between Iran and al-Qaeda in the run-up to the attacks.

Abtahi: I am doubtful about the accuracy of such reports.

Logically, we cannot have good relations with al-Qaeda for both ideological and political reasons. Recently there have been many reports that al-Qaeda believes it has two big enemies, the Shia and the US. And politically speaking, [let's not forget] they killed our diplomats in Afghanistan when they [the Taliban] took power.

FT: There does seem to be a growing sense among some Iraqi politicians that Iran is interfering in Iraq.

Abtahi: Our government has criticised the situation of insecurity in Iraq. During the first two days of the [Moqtada] al-Sadr uprising in Iraq I wrote two articles criticising him. We want a calm situation in Iraq and the Iraqi government knows this. If there is a 'growing sense' in Iraq it is one of concern about insecurity, not one critical of Iran.

FT: But many Iraqis are speaking of interference.

Abtahi: Sadr's deputy recently attacked Iran, but the Iraqi government did not. I listened to him on Al-Jazeera [television] as he was saying Friday prayers in Kufa in Sadr's absence.

FT: Was the move against [Ahmed] Chalabi [leader of the Iraqi National Congress, whose home and offices were raided by Iraqi and US officials in May] really a move against Iran?

Abtahi: Yes, you are right. Naturally, the US is not happy with the influence Iran has in Iraq. But Iran affects Iraq naturally, since the majority of people in Iraq are Shia and many of Saddam's opponents lived in Iran.

When [Ayatollah Mohammad Baqr] al-Hakim was assassinated [in August 2003] I wrote an article saying that as someone who had been living in Iran for many years and who was familiar with the Islamic Republic from its beginning, he could have been in a strong position to adopt the good points of the Islamic Republic, and avoid the bad points, in his own work in Iraq. If this had happened, Sadr would never have risen to prominence.

FT: It seems the Americans decided that Ayatollah al-Hakim was a great man only when he was killed.

Abtahi: [shrugs] The problem with American officials is that they don't understand our region. They don't know Iran, Iraq or Afghanistan. The overthrow of Saddam Hussein was very good news for the region, but US misbehaviour has resulted in a catastrophic increase of racism in the area.

FT: Many of the matters we have discussed would encourage pessimism. Do you think the reform movement in Iran is in retreat, at least for now?

Abtahi: From the point of view of a role in government, I have to say you are right. But reforms never belonged to a particular person. They belong to the people.

So, in this sense, I am not disappointed. The reform movement has become something like a train on a railway. Although there may be some conflicts and changes in the driver's room and changes in speed, the direction of the train is set and cannot be changed.

FT: Mr Abtahi, thank you very much.

Interview by Gareth Smyth, interpreting and translation by Mohsen Asgari

Gareth Smyth

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